Sunday, September 6, 2020

2018-09-03: Geocaching Through South Texas History From The Alamo to the Rio Grande Valley

Hello and welcome back to another recap of AwayWeGo's Geocaching and Exploring Adventures. On this Labor Day Monday, I drove down from Killeen in Central Texas to Falcon Lake in the Rio Grande Valley. There were a lot of new places to see, so let me get started.

After nearly an hour of driving, I made a stop in south Austin for gas, Dunkin Donuts, and a quick urban geocache (GC79YHY).

From there I proceeded down to San Marcos in the next county over. Hays County was founded in 1848. The courthouse building isn't the first one in the county. The current one was built in 1909. I can't say too much more about it because it's a virtual geocache (GCG9JY) and I don't want to give away any answers.


The next county to the south is Guadalupe County. There I found another virtual geocache (GCGAQQ) in the town of Seguin. That took me to a house called Sebastopol. This Greek Revival house was built in 1854-56, with reinforced load bearing walls of cast-in-place limecrete, an early form of concrete made of lime, sand, and gravel. One of many concrete structures built in Seguin, this is an important surviving example of early concrete technology in the southwest.


Not too far away was the Juan Nepomuceno Seguin gravesite (GC6YTN1) for whom the city was named. Born in 1806, Juan assembled Mexican Texan troops and fought in the 1835 Siege of Bexar. He provided horses and aid for troops of Col. William B. Travis. Further aiding as courier during siege of the Alamo. Juan Seguin commanded Company A Cavalry 2nd Regiment during San Jacinto victory and pursuit of the Mexican Army remnants following San Jacinto battle. After a career in politics, Juan Seguin died in 1890 in Nuevo Laredo, Mexico. His remains were returned to Seguin.


Moving on down to Karnes County, I arrive at my next geocache (GC4K1MF). The second Polish colony in Karnes County, the village in this area grew out of a small settlement known as St. Joe and was formally established in 1873. At times the priest at Panna Maria would conduct services at St. Joseph School in what would become Czestochowa. The "Mother Colony" church at Panna Maria was destroyed by lightning in 1877; Czestochowa settlers decided to build their own church. This was the subject of much controversy among the Polish pioneers of Karnes County. Anton Jarzombek (1836-1922) and Frank Mutz (1814-1891) each donated land for the church. Area residents contributed their labor to build the eighty-five by forty foot church with Gervase Gabrysch (1830-1904) as contractor.


Bishop Anthony D. Pellicer blessed the church on February 10, 1878. Father W. Pelczar was assigned as the first pastor that September. As a sign of their reconciliation, the parishioners from the newly rebuilt Panna Maria church presented the new parish a large painting of the Virgin Mary of Czestochowa, the Patroness of Poland. The two congregations often shared leadership in the ensuing years. The Cestohowa church (adopting the Americanized spelling of the community) thrived into the 20th century.

In the 1930's the church underwent intensive additions and remodeling. Though the original walls remained, the roof was completely removed and the ceiling raised. The north and south wings were added and the steeple was increased in height. In 1998, the church celebrated its 125th anniversary. At that time, the parish consisted of 380 members. The Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary Church continues in the traditions of its founders.


Bee County was next on my list. I drove down to this town called Normanna, Texas. The area had been a Mexican land grant back in 1831. In 1874 it was named Walton Station after Sheriff D.A.T. Walton.

Norwegian immigrants moved into the area in 1893, and formed the nucleus of their colony just 2 miles from Walton. When the postal authorities rejected the application for a post office under the name Walton, Normanna was submitted and accepted. The name loosely translates as "the place of Norsemen" but closer to the true meaning is "far North." Seeing that's where they were from, the name was appropriate.

Families descended from the original Norwegian settlers still live in the area. Normanna has a museum in a building that has served as ranch headquarters, a hotel and a residence. The town thrived for years, but then declined after a series of fires and the advent of the automobile. This is that building today.


The geocache (GC10AXF) was located on the west side of town at the Medio Creek Bridge. The bridge was the idea of Viggo Kohler, a man who later built the large Viggo Hotel in Hebbronville (1915). He petitioned the Bee County Commissioners to accept bids in June of 1897. The bridge arrived in kit form and was assembled by the Austin Brothers Bridge Company. It has long since been decommissioned and slowly being reclaimed by nature.


Continuing south into the town of San Patricio, Texas, I went to my next geocache at the Old Cemetery On The Hill (GCMDMV). This cemetery is believed to have been used for generations by Indian tribes and Mexican settlers who lived in this area previous to Anglo colonization. Following the establishment of San Patricio de Hibernia in , the colonists continued to use the old cemetery on the hill.


According to local oral tradition, early graves in the cemetery were marked by wooden crosses and stones bearing Spanish and English inscriptions. Among those interred here are Lt. Marcelino Garcia who was killed at the Battle of Lipantitlan in 1835. Also buried here are soldiers who died in the Battle of San Patricio on February 27, 1836; James McGloin, who's grave was never marked; victims of diseases such as scarlet fever; men killed fighting duels; and many early settlers and their descendants.

After a new cemetery was consecrated at San Patricio in 1872 (GC6C4ZE), the Old Cemetery on the Hill was used infrequently. The old cemetery was neglected for many years until restoration efforts were begun in the 1960's. Some tombstones where lost or destroyed over the years. But the historic graveyard is now maintained.


Passing through the town of Bluntzer, I saw this old schoolhouse. The first Spanish land grant awarded in what is now Nueces County was the Casa Blanca Land Grant. Granted in 1798 by the Spanish government to Juan Jose de la Garza Montemayor (1765-1816) and his three sons, Juan Manuel, Jose Perfecto, and Jose Agustin, it was located between Penitas Creek and the Nueces River. Originally called Penitas Grant, it consisted of 70,848 acres, or sixteen sitios of land.

The school for the town was opened in the 1870's, but flooding by the hurricane of 1919 necessitated its relocation. Justina Bluntzer, daughter of Nicholas, donated the land for the school. This final school building was constructed in 1939. The school held classes until it was consolidated with the Banquete ISD in 1971.


My next geocache was at the Cemeterio De La Luz (GC1CXD6). I couldn't find any information on this cemetery other than there's over 350 burials here dating back to 1926.


Still working my way south, I stop at the Restland Memorial Park cemetery for my next two geocaches (GC2N9WG, GC7TGWT). Located in Bishop, Texas, the town was established in 1910 by F. Z. Bishop on land he had purchased from the Driscoll Ranch. A businessman from Corpus Christi, Bishop dreamed of building a model town on the prairie. He planned, designed, and managed the construction of the townsite. He died in 1950 and was buried in Restland Memorial Park.


My final geocaching stop brought me to the Pedro Garza Zamaora Cemetery (GC23ZNM). There's only 140+ burials dating back to 1904. This row of statues stood out the most.


Well that's it for this days adventure. There's a lot of South Texas / Mexican history to be learned on this drive. We'll be discovering that over the next few months while I work on this new wind project. Until next time, happy caching!

Sunday, August 16, 2020

2018-08-26: Starting a New Wind Project in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas

Finally after nearly two years on a solar project in West Texas, it is completed. Now it's time for a new chapter. My next assignment is a wind farm located down in the Rio Grande Valley in South Texas. I'll be staying in a small cabin in Falcon State Park for a few days until I find something more permanent. The cabin is very basic. But it's a short walk to some great sunset views across Falcon Lake and the Rio Grande River.




As for the project, it's gonna be a small wind farm of just 66 turbines that stand 330 feet tall. They'll stretch from the Rio Grande River 12.5 miles back to this hill I'm parked on.


You often hear that you shouldn't drink the water down in Mexico. I'm not sure what it does to you. But if this monstrous praying mantis on the horizon is any indication, then I'll be sticking to bottled water!


Over these next months I hope to bring you stories and photos as I begin to explore South Texas. There are Geocaches to find and new counties to achieve in my effort to complete the Texas County Challenge.

See you back here soon...

Thursday, July 2, 2020

2018-07-04: The Quest For 10,000 Geocaching Finds: Necropolis of Britannia Manor GOAL COMPLETED!

YAY! 10,000 GEOCACHES FOUND!! A Huge Milestone Made Complete With An Awesome Milestone Worthy Cache!


But wait let me step back a moment. In yesterdays blog, I covered my first stop this morning at the Oakwood Cemetery in Austin, Texas, highlighting some of the historic occupants there. But what I didn't tell you was that I was also collecting clues for the milestone geocache. I had my sights set on making the Necropolis of Britannia Manor III (GC2B034) my 10,000 cache find.

Necropolis of Britannia Manor III is the second most favorite cache in Texas, and that's because the top spot is held by the oldest cache in Texas with a ten year head start. The Necropolis is a multi-stage story with eight chapters. It takes several hours to complete which leads you to an amazing final. The whole thing is an adventure onto itself. It's the only geocache I know of that even has it's own Facebook page!

So there are a few more caches I needed to find before getting to number 10,000, so as I was going around town I found a few more along the way. After leaving the cemetery, I grabbed a cache there on the corner of MLKjr and I-35 called Moonlight Tower #18 RIP (GC2MHWJ). It was one of the locations of the 1895 lighting tower project. Thirty-one lighting towers standing over 150+ feet tall illuminated the growing city. Only 15 remain standing, but not the one at this location.



I was passing by Mount Bonnell along the Colorado River where I stopped to take in the views and also grabbed a virtual cache (GC1436) and an earthcache (GC1WHVV).


Five more quick roadside geocaches and a local four-legged muggle watching nearby. And I've made all the necessary stops and gathered all the clues needed to take me to the final destination: the Necropolis of Britannia Manor III.


So I've tried not to give away any answers or clues for the stages. There's just a short walk from the parking area to the GIANT Geocache container. Along that walk you'll find many ghoulish displays and items to dare you to continue your journey. They say this one is best to do just after sunset, but I didn't have the luxury of doing that. But I'm sure this would rival many a haunted house. I'll leave you with just a few photos of what you'll find along the way as well as a pic of the Final Container. I took a video of the inside and was debating on posting it here as well. But I'll leave that as a surprise to you. If you ever find yourself in Central Texas anywhere near Austin, this is a MUST DO BUCKET LIST Geocache to find! And it forever marks my 10,000th find!







Sunday, June 28, 2020

2018-07-03: The Quest for 10,000 Geocaching Finds: Day 2 and Day 3 Part 1

Welcome back to Day #2 of our Quest for 10,000 Geocaching Finds! Actually in today's blog, I cover Day #2 and the first part of Day #3. Just to recap, I'm off of work this week for the 4th of July holiday. So I set a goal to reach my 10,000th geocache. On day #1 I found 60 caches so that brought me up to 9970, only 30 more to go!

For Day #2, I hit another power run just south of Killeen and picked up another 22 geocaches bringing my total up to 9992 finds. Most were quick park and grabs along the roadside so I don't have any photos to show you. But two caches did get favorite points from me for their creativity. Those were "Jennings Branch" (GC4VHNF) and "Pineworker's Revenge" (GC6PVWG). Only 8 more caches to go!

So that's it for Day #2 and as you can see it would have made for a very short blog post for the day. Therefore, I decided to include the first stop of my Day #3.

I began Day #3 at the Oakwood Cemetery in Austin, Texas. From the historical marker: "In 1839, when Austin was being opened as a site favored for the Capital of the Republic of Texas, a regular burial place was established in what is now the southwest part of Oakwood Cemetery. A decedent was buried on this hill at a spot to the right of Oakwood's present main entrance and northwest of the Hebrew ground within the enclosure. It was not until September 1, 1856, however, that the land legally became city property. On that day the Legislature of Texas transferred the burial tract from the public lands to the corporate city of Austin. Across the decades, the name has changed: in 1886 it was the "City Cemetery"; 1903 "Austin City Cemetery"; and in 1912 "Oakwood".



"Here lies the mortal remains of many pioneers and builders of Austin, and their successors. Among the national and state personalities, cabinet members, governors and other high state officials, mayors, business and professional leaders, and solid citizens from all walks of life.

"The two Jewish sections of Oakwood have been given perpetual care by Temple Beth Israel since 1876. The Austin city government accepted responsibility for permanent care of Oakwood Cemetery in 1970."

Below I'm gonna highlight just some of the much rich history to be found in this historic cemetery. There is more to be found here I'm sure. But due to time constraints, I just looked for the historical markers or headstones that caught my eye.

George Washington Glasscock was born in Kentucky in 1810. He served in the Illinois Militia in the Black Hawk War of 1832 as 1st Lieutenant and commander over Abraham Lincoln. Later, he was Lincoln's business partner in flat-boating on the Sangamon River.

In 1834, George came to Texas and settled in Zavala. As events unfolded in 1835, he quickly became involved in the Texas Revolution, fighting along side Jim Bowie and Ben Milam in the siege of Bexar. After independence, George was a surveyor and moved to the Williamson County area in 1846, where he opened the area's first grist mill and donated land for the county seat. He settled in Austin and became a state legislator and a prominent citizen. Georgetown and Glasscock County are named in his honor. This is the headstone of George and his wife Cynthia.


Thomas "Tom" Green was a Civil War Confederate Brigadier General. Prior to the Civil War, he served as an Army officer in the Mexican-American War and as clerk of the Supreme Court of Texas. He entered the Civil War as a Colonel in the brigade of General H. H. Sibley and saw service in New Mexico. In 1863, he was promoted Brigadier General in command of the Texas Confederate forces, participated in Battle of Galveston and at Mansfield and Pleasant Hill, Louisiana. At the Battle of Blair's Landing, April 12, 1864, he was killed at short range by the cannon of a Federal gunboat on the Red River. A Texas county was named in his honor.


Georgia native Lewis Miles Hobbs Washington came to Texas about 1835 and joined the Revolutionary forces at San Antonio. A member of Col Fannin's staff, he served with the Georgia Battalion at Refugio and Goliad. He was appointed to an office in Sam Houston's Presidential Administration during the days of the Republic. Washington was killed in Nicaragua while in Central America as a news reporter. His body was not recovered but his wife, Rebecca, is buried here.


A small mausoleum belonging to Matthew Kreisle (1831-1882) and wife Sophie Kreisle (1834-1903).


A native of North Carolina, Abner Hugh Cook came to the newly created capital city of Austin in 1839 with a skill in design and construction that soon earned him the title of master builder. Working as architect, engineer, and contractor, Cook produced some of the finest public buildings and Greek revival homes in Texas, including the governor's mansion and the Neill-Cochran House. A charter member of Austin's First Presbyterian Church, Abner Cook died soon after completing work on the old main building (now razed) on the University of Texas campus.


A native Sweden, Swante Palm was was a leader of early Swedish immigration to Texas. Influenced by his nephew, Swen Magnus, Palm came to Texas in 1844. He settled first in La Grange, where he served as postmaster and worked in Swenson's general store. Both men moved to Austin in 1850 and continued their business relationship. In 1854 Palm married Agnes Christine Alm. Their son, Swante Sture, was born in 1855, but died in infancy.

Politically active, Palm held a number of public offices, including Travis County justice of the peace, alderman, and postmaster. As vice consul to Texas for Sweden and Norway, he was instrumental in bringing thousands of Swedish immigrants to the Swedish Evangelical Lutheran Church (now Gethsemane Lutheran Church) in Austin. Swedish King Oscar II knighted Palm in 1884 for his service to Sweden and Texas' Swedish immigrants. A devoted book collector, Palm amassed a large library which he donated to The University of Texas in 1899, increasing its holdings by over sixty percent. An Austin school was later named in his honor.


Mississippi native William M. "Buck" Walton attended the University of Virginia and studied law in Carrollton, MS. In 1853, he moved to Austin, where his first law partner was A. J. Hamilton, the later Governor of Texas. In 1862, he enlisted in the Confederate Army, serving in Co. B, 21st Texas Calvary. He was elected Texas Attorney General in 1866. In the practice of law he had few peers in land litigation, and was considered one of the best criminal defense attorneys in Texas. Esteemed for his generosity, Major Walton was a well known public speaker, author and civic leader. He retired in 1907, but remained active until his death at age 83. He is buried here with his wife of 60 years, Lettie Watkins Walton, their four children and other family members.


Born in Huntsville, Madison County, Alabama in 1815, Andrew Jackson Hamilton studied law and was admitted to the bar in Talladega in 1841. Moving to Texas in 1846, he began practicing law in LaGrange, Fayette County. He was appointed acting state Attorney General in 1849, and in 1850 was elected to a term in the State House of Representatives. Hamilton was elected to the United States House of Representative as an Independent Democrat in 1858, representing the Western District of Texas. He did not seek re-election in 1860 and later moved to New Orleans, Louisiana.

During the Civil War, he was commissioned a Brigadier General of Volunteers and in 1862 was appointed Military Governor of Texas, with headquarters at federally-occupied New Orleans and Brownsville. In June 1865 Hamilton was appointed by President Andrew Johnson as the 11th Governor of Texas, a provisional post in the early Reconstruction period; he served for 14 months. He was a Texas Supreme Court justice in 1866, a delegate to the Loyalist Convention in Philadelphia in 1866, and an unsuccessful candidate for Governor of Texas in 1869. He died of tuberculosis in Austin.


Born Susanna Wilkerson in Tennessee, she was the wife of Captain Almaron Dickinson and was the sole adult Anglo survivor that witnessed the massacre at the Battle of the Alamo. On the morning of March 6, 1836, as the troops of General Antonio López de Santa Anna stormed the mission, Captain Dickinson ran to his wife, reported that all was lost, and expressed hope that she could save herself and their child. Although he died at the Alamo, his wife and child Angelina survived. Following the fall of the Alamo, Susanna was escorted from the Alamo mission, interviewed by Santa Anna himself and sent by him with a message to Sam Houston. She was a strong woman survivor and remained a patriot of Texas, but the memory of those days would haunt her the rest of her life.


One more burial to note that doesn't have a headstone or marker, but did receive a historical marker. Jacob Fontaine was born in Arkansas and came to Austin about 1850 as a slave of Episcopal Minister Edward Fontaine. In 1864, Jacob began preaching separate services for fellow slaves attending the First Baptist Church, then founded the First Baptist Church Colored, about 1867. Jacob also established five other churches in this area and a county association of black baptists. He was politically active; published the "Gold Dollar," an early black newspaper; and urged black voters to support Austin's bid for the University of Texas in 1881. He is buried here in an unmarked grave.

So that is how Day #3 started out and what turns out to be THE DAY of achievement reaching my goal of 10,000 geocaching finds! Come back again for the conclusion and see what incredible Geocaching Adventure I selected for this huge milestone.

Saturday, June 27, 2020

2018-07-02: The Quest For 10,000 Geocaching Finds Day #1

So here we are once again for AwayWeGo's Geocaching Adventures Blog. Thank you for stopping by. I hope you have been enjoying my stories and the history I'm finding through Geocaching.

Some of you have asked me that I have in the title. Yes, I'm actually two years behind in my writing. But trying my best to catch up while working 55-60 hours a week at the same time. I even took 3 months off from caching at the beginning of this year to spend the time writing.

Now returning back to July 2, 2018, the 4th of July falls on a Wednesday and I have the whole week off from work. Unfortunately, my wife still has to work, so it'll be a "stay-cation." What to do, what to do? Hey I'll go Geocaching!



Actually I've been thinking about this for a while now. I've been approaching the big 10,000 geocaching finds milestone. So I have to make it a truly remarkable, fun and memorable geocache. And I think I've found the perfect one. But I have to get there first and that's my goal for this week.

Starting the day off in Killeen, Texas at #9910, I head over to Dunkin' for a caramel iced coffee and a bagel. Then I drive south towards Georgetown. There's several power runs down there where I can get the numbers quickly.

So I get started on the "Hero's of War" series (GC2RBR8) and the "CR-207" series (GC515FD) of geocaches. In the midst of those are some other miscellaneous geocaches that I've found and others I've hidden. The power runs are just roadside caches, so I'll focus the rest of my blog on the stories of the scattered caches.

First up is the Santa Rosa Church Cemetery (GC7T2VK). Also known as the San Jose Cemetery on the Williamson County Historical Society Map. With just over 100 interments, a maintained cemetery still in use today. Although the little gazebo has seen better days. I couldn't find much history other than it's located near the town of Andice which only maintains a population of around 25 or so since the 1970's. There wasn't a geocache here, but I couldn't let that continue. So I hid one myself outside the gazebo.



The next site of interest was the ghost town last known as Gabriel Mills, Texas. From the historical marker: "Samuel Mather settled here in 1849, building a gristmill on the North San Gabriel in 1852. John G. Stewart opened a store near the mill. A small log cabin was in use by 1854 for church, school and lodge meetings. A post office was established in 1858, Mather being postmaster. W. L. Brizendine owned the mill by 1865, adding a cotton gin. Known as Mather’s Mill, Brizendine Mill, or Gabriel Mills, the village thrived until Austin & Northwestern Railroad bypassed it (1881); then a decline began. The post office closed in 1905, and by the 1920's the town itself had disappeared."

About all that remain are a collection of cemeteries and a few old houses. The first cemetery I came to was also another Geocache find (GC1260A). Jonathan Bittick was born in North Carolina September 11, 1796, and his wife Jinsy (Butler) Bittick, born in Georgia on June 8, 1805. He moved their family from Antoine Township (Clark), AR to Teneha District, Coahuila and Texas in 1830 along with Jinsy's parents, George and Elizabeth Butler, and her sister and brother-in-law William and Polly Ashabranner.

In October 1835 he received a grant on the east bank of Teneha Bayou one half mile below Bittick and Alford mill. Another grant was in Shelby County on Ayish Bayou. Jonathan was a miller and fanner who owned land in several Texas counties. In 1853, the Bittick's moved here to the frontier in Williamson County. Jonathan died in Gabriel Mills September 22, 1869 and Jinsy died there February 6, 1872 and are buried here in the family cemetery.


Around the corner just a mile away is a collection of three smaller cemeteries all connected together, the Mather Family Cemetery, the Brizendine Cemetery, and the Mt Horeb Cemetery (GC7T37F, GC7T380). There wasn't a geocache here so I hid two here myself. Rather than go into the long detailed history of the families that first settled this area, I ask that you click on the GC# link to the cache page. There I've posted that history if you're interested.


Most of the cemeteries were well kept as you can see in the photo above. But there were parts of it that was a little overgrown with some weeds. And there were a few worn and weathered flags from a previous holiday that were laying in the grass. I picked those up to be properly disposed of.


The next few photos are some of the remaining buildings left in the area. The first looked to be still maintained, but the rest... well you can see.




Some of the locals checking me out while I was taking pics.




Next up down the road is at the Connell Cemetery (GC2H9Q6). Alabama native Sampson Connell Jr (b. 1822) came to Texas with his family in 1834. Sampson along side his father, Sampson Connell, Sr. and his brother David Cook Connell supposedly delivered the last load of supplies to the Alamo before it was attacked by the Mexican Army. Later the three fought side by side in the "Battle of San Jacinto". Following Texas winning its' independence from Mexico, Sampson Connell, Jr. received a land grant in Williamson County from the Texas Republic for his efforts and patriotism. On his headstone is the bronze plaque for "Citizen of the Republic of Texas, 1836-1846." There are 20 burials here beginning with Sampson Connell Jr in 1873, to the last burial in 1939.



The geocache container was rather interesting for a cemetery. It appears as though one of the bodies didn't have all the pieces parts buried with it!



The next geocache of interest is at the William-Buck Cemetery (GC3A1YR). From the historical marker: "Legend surrounds the first years of this burial ground. Local oral history relates that among the earliest graves are those of a slave called Willie Osborne and an unknown Indian. Members of the Stephens family, ambushed by Indians in 1854, are said to have been buried here in their wagon. The oldest marked grave is that of infant Polly Williams, interred in 1854, on land owned by W. W. Williams. A cemetery association was organized in the 1960's. Many honored veterans of Confederate and U.S. Armed Forces are interred here. Fifteen graves were moved from the Bullion Cemetery in the 1970's when Lake Georgetown was formed. There are over 250 burials here."

My last stop was at the Perry Cemetery. I didn't find the cache (GC2H9QW), but I did find a story. James Wesley and his brother John Montgomery Perry both were members of the Scout Co. D. 12th Division Texas Calvary during the Civil War. They first served in Texas, then they were sent to Arkansas where they took part in battles of Searcy's Lane, Cotton Plant, and Langee River. They then went to to Louisiana, where they fought in battles of Mansfield, Pleasant Hill, and Yellow Bayou. It was at Yellow Bayou that James was wounded in the right knee on May 16, 1863. He was in the hospital for some time, and then sent home on furlough. After his leg healed, he rejoined his unit, but was in no more battles. At the close of the war, the company disbanded at Falls County, TX.


That's enough for the day. Between the cemeteries and the power run, I've found 60 geocaches for today. But at 3 PM on a Texas July day it's pretty hot!

Now I'm at 9970 finds. Only 30 more to go! Do I make it tomorrow? Come back again and you'll see...